Marijuana Gardne Clean up program?

Shane Krogen

April 13th 2005

To: All who attended Marijuana Garden Cleanup trips 1 and 2

Re: Marijuana Garden Restoration Cleanup Program

On behalf of Barbara Wingfield and the Oversight Committee, I would like to express my extreme gratitude for your efforts on the trial run of our first two cleanup trips. Your performance was beyond all expectations, and the law enforcement division of the USFS cannot stop telling Barb and me how much they appreciate what you’ve done. They continue to remark on how hard you all work, and the skills you bring to these events; this is not news to Barb or me, as we know you are all blessed, and some of the finest people that walk the earth.

We learned loads during these two events! Many of our fears and predictions (raised during our initial discussions last fall) never came to pass. However, the one thing I did not consider thoroughly enough was the weather, and what would have happened if we did not have hosts like PGE and the USFS on these two trips. The rain, the snow, and everything Mother Nature tossed our way only added to the flavor of these events.

I have one final request of you. You see, several of us on the Oversight Committee are scratching our heads and wondering what your thoughts are now that you have completed the trips. Barb and I made an effort to speak with as many of you as possible, but we need as much feedback as we can get. So, would you please take the time to log on to the Discussion Board and go to the following link (“Volunteers’ area to speak their voices”): http://www.trailcrew.org/forum4/viewforum.php?f=20&sid=519ce533a05ecc41e20aa6a3040dee18
And, as openly as possible, tell us what is on your mind about these trips and your feelings as to whether we should continue them or not. This is your program, and I can’t lead wisely if you don’t tell me the direction you’d like to see it go. Please do this as quickly as possible as we have to make some final decisions before the end of April or sooner!

Shane
_________________
Shane Krogen
Director of Trail Crew

Tom Duxbury · Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 14 Location: Fresno

Emmy & I would like to vote yes concerning more "gardening trips". they are as well run as any regular trail clearing trips;actually better than most considering the weather factor. The constant and effective communications between all crews working was a major key to what we consider a great success for all of us.It was the same good people, good humor and good food. And in case anybody's wondering,the satisfaction of a job well done at the pot gardens is as intense as rolling a 4 footer off the trail.
Congrats to management and crew leaders.
Tom &Emmy

Tony Cortez · Joined: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Galt

Shane,

I'll get the discussion started. I think the drawbacks of the marijuana garden projects are significant:

1. safety concerns beyond normal trail crew-
- off-trail terrain which involves walking through heavy brush
- potential booby traps
- garbage and the potential hazards of the trash (i.e.sharp objects, contamination)
- chemicals used in growing
- poison oak
- perilous surface- steep, slippery, icy,
- working in small separated groups
- working in obstructions- heavy brush,
-weather- early spring and early winter in the Sierras

2. we're not working in areas frequented by the public for hiking or camping

3. this type of work is not encouraging to the family environment in that one would not take a young untrained child on this type of work

4. if we involve ourselves in the prosection of these criminals, are we deviating from our mission statement?
Our mission is to " assist professional land managers in education and recruitment of the public" and " to promote and preserve the natural environment through protection of wilderness, and maintenance of infrastructure and facilities"

I have some reservations on the project because it is alot different than what we're used to. The dangers are unique and the second trip seemed to be more perilous than the first.

Also, are we crossing the line from preserving the wilderness to participating in the law enforcement process?

Granted, the marijuana garden infrastructure out there may present a danger to fire fighters, I can't imagine any backpackers, hikers or horseriders out there.

One helicopter accident could wipe out the whole program.

There are positives too:

These are our public lands and it is our mission to preserve the natural environment. We may be
- discouraging growers returning to our area
- reducing hazards to firefighters
- making a small dent on the war against drugs and the bad things that come with drugs

I went to the first two trips and I expect to be there for the next two. I would respect any one who disagrees, thinks this project is outside of our scope, and speaks out against this project. I think HSVTC has been open and welcoming to honest differing opinions.

Tony.

P.S. The fact that we had no one injured or lost is a great testament to the teamwork and professionalism of us volunteers. I get the impression that we performed beyond what the LEOs anticipated.

Tony Cortez · Joined: 20 Feb 2004 Posts: 5 Location: Galt

Tom and Em,

I think you hit the nail on the head. There was super communication and leadership across the board- ESPECIALLY Barbara and Shane.

We've all worked closely with each other and I am sure that's why we all worked so well and had so much fun.

Everyone brings expertise. Thanks Tom for taking care of those structures.

Em- you work very hard.

Tony.

Kyle.Hamilton · Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 15 Location: Oxnard, CA

I think we should do more of these clean ups because just the simple act of takeing all of there trash out of the forest and ensureing that no firefighters are hurt but the toxic smoke or by the propane bottles that we found, that alone is worth doing this.

I agree with tony on the aspect that we should move slowly and carefuly into this, I think that if we have a major accadent or injury that its going to be on a long backpacking trip or on one of the clean ups.

Phil Hawkins · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:25 am Post subject:

It would not hurt my feelings if we didn't do this kind of work in the future. It was not nearly as much fun, and rather hard work, and COLD! But I do believe this is not a family outing.

I hate to put it on this level, but if the powers-that-be want to include us on the bounty gained from seizure of the perpetrators assets, then I say "Yes". If not, then I think we are wasting our time. But if they toss us a bone in that regard, then let's form a marijuana garden work force and use it exclusively. I feel real nervous letting first-timers (name edited out-moderator) do this stuff.

Phil
_________________
Phil Hawkins, Webmaster
High Sierra Volunteer Trail Crew

Kyle.Hamilton · Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Posts: 15 Location: Oxnard, CA

I agree with Phil, during the first trip we talked about how we wouldnt want first timers to come on these trips.

I dont care about the bounty gained, its not about what we can get, its about what we can do.

Keith Fields · Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 11 Location: Wasco

I have attended both trips and my thoughts are this:

I can have a good time doing just about anything when I am in the company of HSVTC members. The good food and bad jokes are the same, whether we are on a "regular" trail or playing mountain goat on a pot farm site!

This kind of work is definitely not what we are used to, but I think we have proven that our group is capable of doing just about anything that is in the best interest of the forest. I think that it is in the best interest of the long-term goals of this group to work for the USFS in its entirety, not just the "recreation" arm. The reality is that there are a lot of behind-the-scenes politics and we cannot afford to ignore the needs of the Law Enforcement arm of the USFS. However, I agree with Phil that some of the seizure assets should be shared with us to fund our efforts. If the USFS could supply us with vehicles, gas, tools, food, etc in exchange for our efforts, I would feel a lot better about playing garbageman for cops, and they in turn look good to their bosses for implementing a plan to not only clean the sites after they are "busted," but also send a clear message to growers that they are not welcome in California National Forests.

It also seems to me that these "garden" trips will require many volunteers to be successful. Rain and cold weather will always be factors in late winter and spring and thus we may have difficulty attracting a large group of volunteers for this work, particularly those who have limited time to spend with our group, who may instead opt for the "easier" summertime trips. Of course, the "hard core" group will always be there! We will do just about anything for really good chili dogs!

I say let's do this, as long as it doesn't pull too much effort away from our primary goal, that being keeping backcountry trails maintained for the public. Spreading ourselves too thin will reduce our effectiveness. Increased recruitment efforts may be necessary to ensure we have enough volunteers for this project.

I trust that our oversight committee has a good grasp of the politics involved and that they are acting not only in the best interest of the total needs of the USFS, but especially in the best interest of our volunteers.

Cold, rain, snow, hot food and fun with my friends? Sign me up again!

Keith Fields
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I don't know where I'm going but I'm not lost!

Eric Hamilton · Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 62 Location: Clovis, Califonia

Hi

After working on the first two trips, one of my concerns is that we were promised that we could keep what we find. Because of the delay between clearing out the marijuana and when we got there, there was not very much of any use. There is also an indication that the LEO crew that cleans out the marijuana, keeps the "good stuff" for themselves when they find it. If we don't get a chance at the good (or is that "better") stuff, what are we doing this for? (I know, I know, it's for the great comradship and food that we all enjoy, but I would like just a little more to help fund the Trail Cres its self.)

I believe that, as Tony says, none of these areas are places where a "normal" hiker would ever visit, however I also believe that we shouldn't leave trash in the hills. (And that includes the MRE wrappers that the LEO's crew left behind!)

We have had signifiant problems in finding the grow sites. I assume that the recon team will be able to get accurate information about where these sites actually are and an accurate idea of what is there. (Miami Creek was a supprise!) GPS locations from a fixed wing aircraft flying at over 100 mph, somewhere near a site, might be good enough for "government work" but it is a real looser for us on the ground.

I have no problems with the weather as long as we can get the great facilities that PG&E and the USFS have made available for us. And as long as we can "opt out" on heavy bad weather days. (Yes Phil, I was out in the snow and rain and I kept on working as did every one else on the team.)

There were many comments made while on the "trail" about not being able to stay a little longer at Miami Creek and do more work on Friday and finish on Saturday. Remember that on Firday, Dave (I believe correctly) "called off" the day's work due to heavy snow. Where I was it was snowing, lightly to heavily, from the time we got out of our trucks until we left several hours later. On Saturday we worked all day long and I was very glad that I had brought my heavy jacket. (When the helicopter came in, it blew down the cold upper air and we could all see our breaths until a few minuits after it left.)

The availability of helicopters to remove the trash, etc., was a constant sticking point. (I do agree that on the second trip on Sunday when H-40 went off an air lifted two hurt people to the hospitan instead of getting rid of six cargo nets of trash, was the right thing to do. Sometime, someone is going to have to go in there and hook up and get rid of that stuff though.)

This was the first time that I have worked with various LEOs and their dedication to the job was eye-opening and fantastic. They were great! My normal contact with law enforcement only occurs when I am caught speeding, etc. These two trips were VERY positive contacts.

I have some safety concerns that relate to the way that the helicopters leave the pick up area. I dislike having any thing heavy over my head and think that if possiable, it would be nice if they could avoid carrying the trash over the crew's heads. I realize that the helicopter has to go in a carefully defined and safe for the helicopter, flight pattern for its own safety, but I worry about anything falling out of the nets immediately after they get picked up.

Another constant question that we kept asking ourselves, and each other, was "What is holding the helicopter up now?" Getting accurate, and timely, information about what the helicopter is doing would reduce a lot of the fustration that we felt while waiting for it on the ground.

I don't know how long it takes the helocopter to unload, but it takes about 30 to 90 seconds to pick up a load. It would be nice if the time inbetween pickups could be reduced so that we could get out of there more quickly.

I realize that the helicopter pilots have to worry about their aircraft, but it would be nice if they would try picking up "double nets" as soon as possiable. Every person I talked to had a different estimate as to how much the helicopter could safely pickup at a time. The nets had a little tag on them indicating that they were rated at several thousand pounds, even though we never got close to that. Then it is unclear how much the helecopter may actually pick up. If possiable it would be nice if we could get three nets to be picke up at a time. That way we could leave faster.

There was always a problem with actually packing up the junk so that it would not fall out of the nets. One crew ran out of duct tape. Is there anything better? We have a set of guide lines for which color tape to use for each type of load. However after a few hours cleaning up we tend to ignore all of these rules and just use anything handy to "tie up the trash and get rid of it". This implies that some of the "good stuff" get marked incorrectly and ends up thrown out.
_________________
bye....................eric

Shane Krogen · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:37 am Post subject: Being Paid

In a conversaton with a judge i had this week he clearly pointed out a few things on this topic!

1. Our name is the High Sierra "VOLUNTEER" Trail Crew
Point Volunteers are not Paid to do this.

2. Most of these people are scum bags and do not have any assets.
Point we can only ask for our actural cost; FOOD

3. If we were awarded our food cost it could take many years to see it!

Now with those points out i will say you must trust in me that this is a very importent subject and at the top of my list!
Next is our mission statement below

We will assist professional land managers in education and recruitment of the public, to promote and preserve the natural environment through protection of wilderness, and maintenance of infrastructure and facilities. We will transmit to future generations these ideals and principles for the preservation and maintenance of public lands.

My point is simple we have two words in our mission statemet that either stop us from doint this work or commit us to it when we are asked;
1. Protection of wilderness ~ these area's are not in the wilderness but have been found there
2. Preservation and maintence of public land ~ This is OUR public lands!

Then let think about the impact of these gardens, the damage from our first trip flows directly in to Pine Flat and into our water system that waters the food we eat daily.

Second the site was less than a few miles from the Oakhurst Water District that provides water to the towns drinking supply.
What about the Fish and Wild Life that drink the water that is damaged by these gardens. I spoke with the Fish and Game this week and they consider it a big problem too. And were very happy we were cleaning it up, again a stae agency with no funds.

So you see it's not just about money it's about the program, the USFS does not have money to clear the trails in the wilderness and the USFS does not have the funds to clean up these mess's. We can not look to the Fed's or the State for Funds, we need to look at large Corps~ the one we all work for or the ones we see advertizing daily on TV, this is a hint of something to come!

As I have said IF NOT US THEN WHO? Please do not get me wrong I am not leaning either way I server at your pleasure and will lead in the direction YOU point but as your tour guide i will point out what i see so your are informed!

Please continue your posting WE NEED YOUR VOICES!

Shane
_________________
Shane Krogen
Director of Trail Crew

Eric Hamilton · Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 62 Location: Clovis, Califonia

Hi

After my last post I found that I have missed a few things (are you suprised?):

1. It would be nice if we could get some DIRECT (in their OWN words, if I can read "Shane", I can read anything.) comments about what we did from the LEOs and other USFS types. These comments should include what they expected and what they got. I got the impression that we delivered more than they expected. (I suspect that this group does not often "play around on the internet", but it would be nice if we could see what they think of what we did. They might like to see what we are saying about this type of trip too.)

2. During our "tail gate" breifings, we should mention to all that this is an area that has various types of animals present. I.e. snakes, lizards, ticks,
spiders with later on in the season meat bees (yellow jackets) and scorpians.

3. It would be nice if we got a recap of what we did, pounds of junk, number of nets, amount of "good stuff", etc., on the web site soon after each trip.

4. On the first trip there were some comments about having so many USFS personal there that we could form up a team of them and have them do a site themselves. If all these office staff keep on comming out, lets get some work out of them!

5. I don't know how to do it, but it would be nice if we could get some coverage from the local media on trips like these. We don't get much pay (even though we do get time and a half on long days), a little ego boost would be nice.
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bye....................eric

Phil Hawkins · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Being Paid

(post temporarily moved to Oversight Committee forum)
_________________
Phil Hawkins, Webmaster
High Sierra Volunteer Trail Crew

Dave Robertson · Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Clovis, Ca.

To the oversight committee;

I have read the other comments about the first two cleanup events and I do agree with Tony on many of his thoughts. In saying that, I would have rather been in the forest, sick with snow falling than sitting on the couch watching the Masters. When I went through my pictures from Friday to Saturday and seeing what a difference we made was unbelievable. Just looking at the one picture of a group of people hiking back up a hill on Friday in the snow and not hearing one complaint really says a lot about HSVTC members.
I do strongly agree with Tony on the safety and family issues.
1. Safety
· Helicopter safety is very important. No matter what, personnel must have gone through the training or has been part of a lift before they can participate in a lift. No exceptions. Maybe having a fourth person there for OJT would help qualify more people for future cleanups.
· Using the heavy rubber gloves for cleanup should be the norm. This would cut down on possible contaminations from bacteria and pesticides. You can discard rubber gloves after each use and they are relatively inexpensive. For me they worked great on Saturday.
· We should establish a well-defined and marked trail to each cleanup area. I know on our first trip at the end of the day we came upon areas we had to turn back from because of the thick under brush. Somehow, we had wandered off the trail I had marked.
· On the weather issue most of my crew on Friday was not prepared for the inclement conditions. By the time we got back to our vehicles, much of the crew had wet boots, gloves and jackets. I found out last weekend it is hard to predict the weather in the mountains. If there is a possibility of inclement weather we need to be better prepared.
2. Family
· I feel that young children below a certain age should not participate on the cleanup even if the parents insist. Most of these sites are in rugged areas, which may be too dangerous to small children. I will say that the two young adults on Saturday’s cleanup did a fantastic job.
· In addition, the cleanup of these pot farms should only be open to members, which have participated on a trail crew. Working in those conditions with all of the safety issues by a person new to the organization I feel may increase the likely hood of an accident.

Should we continue to participate in this type of undertaking, I believe we should. Until the local, state or government agencies have a plan and organization to take care of these sites someone needs to. What a difference the HSVTC made to that area of the forest. I would also like to say that the cooking team did a fantastic job. Working in the rain and sloping around in the mud, you people were great. I am sorry I missed Saturday’s dinner.

Dave Robertson

lkfairley · Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 1 Location: Fresno

I wholeheartedly agree with Tom, I can have the satisfaction I get from any other trip doing this kind of work.

A word about kids - they need a lot of supervision. I would not bring young kids on one of these outings, the terrain and poison oak are deterrent enough. But even when I bring my teenage kids on a "regular" trail crew outing I do it with the understanding that their safety and personal growth is my primary responsibility, and any actual "work" I get done is gravy. To me, that creates a great family bonding experience. They also get to see other healthy adults cooperating on a challenging project. What a great education!

I think if these trips are continued an advisory (ten and up?) might be appropriate, along with a work level rating.

Given the weather we've encountered, it might even make sense to limit them to areas where we know we have indoor facilities - there seem to be plenty of sites to go around!
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Laurel

Eric Hamilton · Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 62 Location: Clovis, Califonia

Hi

I think that there should be a special exemption for "having been on trips before" and that would be that "inmates" would be welcome without "prior service". From what I heard, they did very well and all extra hands are nice to have.

In one of my previous posts I neglected to mention my favorites of Poison Oak and MUD. Both are fun stuff.
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bye....................eric